Supermoan: Movie Moan's Ultimate Superman Retrospective Episode 8 - 'Man Of Steel' (2013): The Ultimate Debate
Sat, August 17, 2013 You can watch this two part epic on Blip:
Part 1
Part 2
Or on Youtube:
Part 1
Part 2
"I will NOT introduce my kids to this Superman" - Justin Korthof
"How many movies have we seen where heroes kill villains and don't start pussying out and crying at the end?" - Jamie Williams
"I just love that the next shot is Clark trying to hitch a ride from a truck. Why didn't you just steal the one you impaled you silly shit!" - Phil Gee
"There's serious shit going on Phil. You can't put it into little boxes, man" - Randall Maynard
"This idea that Superman has to save people is ludicrous" - Robert Meyer Burnett
Those are just some of the gems that lie in store for any of you who are willing to put your evening plans on hold and join us for the next four hours as we undertake our biggest podcast to date and hold Superman's first cinematic reboot up to intense scrutiny to see if it is built to stand the same test of time as its 1978 predecessor, or whether its flaws are great enough to sink it completely.
By the end of the show, every member of the group will have formed their final, definitive opinion of the film, to be carved on a stone tablet for all time.........and maybe, just maybe, one person's score may go up or down.
Download the audio only MP3 version of the WHOLE SHOW right here (at this link cause the file is too big to attach to the post):
Man Of Steel (2013) - The Full Epic Roundtable Discussion (audio version)
Reader Comments (12)
I really feel like Robert is a bit blinded at some of the criticisms at this movie. Especially during the end fight when his only defense seem to be "he can't do anything, this is all new to him". That's true but that still doesn't excuse that they hardly acknowledged any of the destruction and the thousands of lives that were lost. A big theme of the movie was how the people of Earth would react to seeing an alien. A reaction to the destruction that he caused definitely needed to have some attention paid to.
Do you realize that during the final battle Superman was basically a mute except for the start and end of the battle. If Superman is so "green" as someone has said why would he not try to use words to tell Zod to stop instead of barreling head on in a pointless fist fight. Nothing was said, there was plenty of times when Zod would say something but Superman's response is lets butt heads again. To try to reason with Zod most likely would have been pointless but nothing.
Robert Meyer Burnett
you say that you like when he saves the oil rig. that this is superman to you. than in the next second you say that when he destroys the truck he is not superman. in almost every sentence you made something up to fit your opinion why you like MOS. and why others were wrong.
you are a great guy to listen on movie moan. but what you did in this podcast talking about MOS was WRONG. wrong and wrong. you acted like fans who didnt like MOS didnt get it.
the biggest disappointment is that noone on the podcast told you what you are doing.
it was an epic movie moan.
Great comments above.
My perplexity lies with the repeated mantra that this is Superman Day 1 as a justification for Superman's obliviousness to the damage being wrought around him. One does not need to be a superhero to display compassion for the fallen. One just needs to be a conscious entity. (Notice I avoided saying human to avoid the inevitable but he's an alien remarks. :-D )
MOS preaches actions has consequences through out the movie and then at the end of the climax with the biggest actions, there are no consequences whatsover. It's mind boggling how tone deaf the movie becomes in the third act.
Whenever someone tells you they have a big problem with a film, then they go on to tell you that there is a simple fix for it all, that problem wasn't all that big to begin with.
Also, people really need to re examine the difference between world engine damage and direct superman damage. And what's more, taking out a few semi evacuated blocks is pretty bad but not even half as bad as what happened in GIjoe2. I'd say Superman "saved us" is fully appropriate in that moment.
Glad someone finally mentioned to Phill that "Krypton's had it's chance" was first uttered by Jor El.
Now all we need to do is explain to Jamie the difference of impact on someone killing an un conceived child vs killing a grown man with your bare hands.
Another fantastic discussion. I don't think that I can add anything to the discussion that hasn't already been debated on the podcast or in the comments above, so I'll just congratulate Phil on composing a fantastic episode of Supermoan and wait impatiently for the next installment! I look forward to the Movie Moan gang discussing the next "phase" of the cinematic DCU as well as looking into the rest of the Superman legacy on film/TV.
I gotta say, Robert was just annoying in this. He was absolutely just making stuff up that wasn't even implied or hinted at in the movie. I'm not saying we should be spoonfed things, subtlety is totally fine, but Rob was simply making up excuses for sloppy, shitty writing, filling in the countless, dozens of blanks, pretty much building up a new movie in his mind. And Jamie was barely in this podcast, which is sad, he's the coolest.
Well, it was a great podcast and a great end to Supermoan (for the moment anyway), though I gotta say, MOS wasn't good at all.
I'm really surprised no one seemed to mind the fact that Clark LETS HIS FATHER DIE TO KEEP HIS ALIEN ORIGIN A SECRET. To be fair, that whole subplot was rubbish (was Superman supposed to be doing something more important than to save people? or did he think there was something more important? why did he save those people in the oil rig then? wouldn't they reveal his secret?) and it makes Pa Kent more of a weak and terrible character because it's one thing to make a character flawed, but if you go too far you get to the point where his virtues become overshadowed by his flaws (So he wanted him to be a superhero or not? I'm confused). Not to mention it makes Clark look weak by following the whims of a suicidal misantropist (that's Pa btw), who's terrified by what Superman could do to society.
The Zod/Superman fight.....look I know it's his "first day", but c'mon...he already wrecked Smallville so he should have learned SOMETHING already. The timeframe is irrelevant, he should gain more experience as a superhero as he goes along, otherwise he comes across as a careless dick (which according to the other Supermoans seems to be one of the definitve Superman traits, this last one takes the cake though) who doesn't care about humans. Also, I think either the lack of dynamics, tone or the length of the action sequences (or at least the last two) really make the film feel overwhelming. You never feel any changes in how the fight is going to turn out (he's got the upperhand, now the other guys has it, now we're back to the first gu...) and Snyder and Goyer insist in blasting you with "epicness" (and an overbearing score...sorry Zimmer, liked the theme, hated the underscore) for the last 40 minutes or so, and nothing more than that, that you feel exhausted by the end. It's what movies with this kind of large scale 3rd acts like LOTR, The Avengers, and Avatar do, and this film didn't do that which is why it doesn't have the same kind of good will from the audience. Also the reason they don't acknowledge the destruction in the end....same reason they never do that in the Transformers movies, it's too dark of a note to end the movie at.
Supes killing Zod...no problem, though I wish he tried to reason with him earlier in the movie (dream sequence and before they fight), as that would have made his grief after he kills him make sense. Or more sense, because Superman is not a trained killing machine, so killing is not something that he should feel comfortable with.
Still, it was well casted and the Krypton part was fun (inconsecuential Codex subplot aside), and it had a few moments that worked really well (Pete Ross, the ending, Smallville fight, the interrogation) so not a total waste I guess.
Anyway, it was a great retrospective and I hope you do another one in the future.
Phil, you pulled out all the stops for this one, and it was worth the wait. Fantastic discussion! I particularly loved how contentious the debate over Superman’s decision to kill Zod (and his subsequent reaction) became. I personally think that it was a gutsy choice by the filmmakers, and that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the character that will hopefully be built on in the sequel(s).
And just for the record, count me as among the pro-Robert Meyer Burnett faction. I found his consistent and fairly full-throated defense of the movie to be admirable.
PS - Phil loved your closing scene. Was that music from The Robe?
Oh no Lou, that would have been a good choice but the music was the finale from 'Ben-Hur' I put that in specifically for you to spot.
Now where do I begin.
@AdamK - I do agree with the mute point but that goes to what Justin said about how Zod doesn't carry out his threat against any humans so there's nothing for Supes to reason about until the end. I think I can speak for him when I say he isn't blinded by anything. He has simply forged his opinion, I think he justified his points, and nothing is going to change them. If there is one thing I've learned about people's reaction to this film, nobody is changing their mind on it. In that respect, Robert is just the same as the rest of us.
@dark_b - Just to give you a little inside info, Justin did bring up 'Star Trek Into Darkness' and Rob's negative attitude to that at one point but then quickly changed the subject because we needed to stay focused. I think there's an argument to be made there about attachment to source material and willingness to accept change so it was a shame that it didn't go further but, you can understand, the show couldn't be any longer than it is. By the way, Rob is always willing to discuss and defend his viewpoint with anyone on twitter if you want to catch him there.
@Jim - I'm sorry sir, I could do with some clarification. Did you actually enjoy the show, at all?
@Kal-El Fan - It's made for you. I'm glad you liked it (sorry, let me rephrase, managed to get through it).
@Oscillator - That is a very fair point about Jamie. I would just boil it down to the others having a huge amount to say, and Jamie being a total gentleman about waiting his turn, which sometimes never came. I'm truly sorry you found Robert annoying. I just find him passionate. Again, if you want to debate specifics with him, he'll be happy to talk to you.
@TheMati - Yes, he is a terrible, terrible alien as Randall called him once during 'Superman IV'. By the way, Pa Kent is not terrified of what Superman could do to society. He can't be. He knows Clark's going to be exposed at some point. He just doesn't know when is the best time and obviously wants Clark to know the kind of man he wants to be before it happens.
@Brett Blake - Thank you sir. We have proof thanks to you that Robert's reaction to the film is as divisive as the film itself and there is no correct opinion.
Really like the site, guys. Keep those four hour nerd debates coming!
It seems that all the videos and the audio version of this have been deleted, is there any way of still listening to this?